diversity in law school over happy hour

[abony holmes]

In the newest installment of our law school interview series, 1L Danielle discusses the downside of having interesting classes that lead to conversations outside of class. As much fun as Constitutional Law is, she doesn't want to deal with heated affirmative action debates while she's trying to enjoy her beer.

Comments

[Toney]

Firstly, I love Danielle - she is one of my absolute favorite people. If I had to make a top 5 people to drink beer with list, she's on it.

But as the white male in the story who claimed to have not experienced the "white advantage", I feel I should explain my side of the argument. I grew up in a VERY homogeneous area of the country (Northern Idaho). It isn't possible to experience the advantage of my race (at least relative to my local peers) when there isn't diversity (less than 1% African Americans). Sure, a trip through Alabama might be more pleasant for me, but when it comes to criteria for basing admissions and financial aid on, what advantage have I received?

Now, historically, everyone can agree that affirmative action was meant to provide equal access to education and employment right? Where people disagree is the motivation for affirmative action. People are generally split on two lines of reasoning: compensation for past discrimination, and to balance the socio-economic factors that have traditionally inhibited access to equal education and employment.

My argument with regards to the first line of reasoning was that despite the fact that people might have been called extremely insulting terms by rednecks growing up, since it wasn't me that was doing the insulting, I shouldn't be penalized (relative to the victimized, college admissions-wise) for what the idiot-members of my race say. Now, this wasn't the thrust of my argument, and I realize that being part of a homogeneous community growing up can skew my reasoning here... I have a lot more thinking to do on the subject.

The main point of my argument was the second factor, and that is that an attempt to "level the playing field" with regards to socio-economic status needs to take into account all the factors that inhibit access to education. Race is an easy place to start, since traditionally African-Americans have been financially disadvantaged, and being so precludes further education which tends to perpetuate the economically-disadvantaged cycle. Basing affirmative action solely on race fails to take into account the non-majority socio-economically disadvantaged individuals. It doesn't seem fair to me for a poor white kid to not be considered for help to "level the playing field", and for a socially-advantaged minority to be eligible for it.

Now, this is dangerous territory, because people tend to focus on this sort of "exception" situation and as a result, rail against all race-based aid (think Rush Limbaugh). I don't agree with this at all, and strongly believe that race-based affirmative action is better than none at all - I just feel that in a perfect system, all socially-disadvantageous factors would be considered. Even though there is a strong correlation between race and economic disparity however, that criteria doesn't cover non-minority individuals that are also in need of some serious help. A system of affirmative action that bases aid on socio-economic disparity without regard to race, if administered properly, would help minorities proportionally more (because of the minority-disparity correlation), but would also help those that are precluded because of race. Pipe-dream? Yes. Possible? Probably. Worth changing the criteria from race if it ended up hurting minorities more until they get it figured out? No. All this is assuming a region of the country that didn't have the equivalent of a Prop. 209.

BTW, I came to law school for witty conversation over beer. I would like to point out that later in this very conversation, we talked about whether or not Contracts had "jumped the shark".

[Abony Holmes]

Hey Toney,

Thanks for stopping by and commenting. First, in response to your white privilege comment:

White privilege is a far more complex subject than you are making it out to be. I would encourage you to do a little research on the subject, as it is incredibly important that as many white people as possible understand white privilege. Here is the first thing I came up with when I did a good search: http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

Also, check out this guy: http://www.zmag.org/bios/homepage.cfm?authorID=96

He's radical, but he also has some great points about white privilege to offer, and he's also a white male.

Another thing--white privilege isn't something invented to make white people feel bad about being white. Everyone experiences some form of privilege, and everyone should take efforts to combat their privileges and understand the perspective of others. As a black woman, for a long time I couldn't imagine what kind of privileges I had, but it only takes me a few seconds to think of some, and I want to give you a really good example of how I came to understand my own privilege and think of ways to combat it:

For a long time, I've hated riding the bus. It was always a huge pain, because buses are never, ever on time. What made it even worse was when a person in a wheelchair would get on the bus, thereby taking up even more of my time, and then get off a few stops later. I was always incredibly annoyed by this.

A few years ago, I started thinking really seriously about white and male privilege. It got me so angry that there were white people and males who couldn't see that just by virtue of their sex and race, they were able to do things that I could never do (one example, walk to the bus stop at night without fear or go to a department store and not be followed around like a thief). I thought to myself, I could never be so dense as to not recognize my obvious privilege. This was when I was checked by someone I knew with a disability. She reminded me that everyday she had to wake up an hour earlier than most students because it was difficult for her to get to class on our campus. She reminded me that until very recently, it would have been impossible for her to get around most places. She reminded me that I often avoided her, and never treated her the same as my friends who weren't in a wheelchair.

That's when I realized how difficult it is to see privilege. It can be right in your face everyday (and I take the bus almost everyday) and you can be completely unaware of it.

[Abony Holmes]

Once I realized that I had able bodied privilege, it was easy for me to come up with about a million other ways I was privileged.

I grew up in a Christian household in a Christian society. I am tall. I am cute (although some might disagree, I can flirt my way to perks when I need to). I speak English really well. I went to college. I am in graduate school. I can vote in elections. I have internet access. My parents own their home. The list can go on and on.

Initially, I was discouraged by this. I felt overwhelmed, like there was nothing I could do to make a difference in all of these areas where I have privilege, so I may as well give up now. I thought about the places where I didn't have privilege, and I felt hopeless there too.

But hopelessness isn't a state someone like me can stay in for long. After a while, I started educating myself about issues relating to being disabled in this country. I started putting myself outside of my comfort zone and spending more time with disabled people. I didn't expect them to educate me on what it was like to be disabled, but I did listen to them when they talked about the difficulties they experienced.

I also found myself speaking up when I heard things about people that didn't sit right with me. When people complained about things, or made off color jokes, I didn't laugh or join in on the complaining. Instead I presented an alternative (though often not quite educated...I still have a ways to go) point of view. I never got so bold as to think I could speak for the disabled, or I understood what they go through daily because I'm black or female or because I grew up poor. I just started listening and reading and thinking and talking. The more I did that, the more I learned, not just about the disabled, but about transgendered people, about gays and about transexuals. I learned more about homeless people and people who grew up in rural areas. In fact, because I changed the way I thought about privilege, I was able to learn and listen and advocate for people even though I didn't meet a single member of the group.

Now when I vote, I do so for people who I think will make change. When I donate, I do for organizations I think will make change. When I volunteer...well you get the idea...

Basically, I feel a whole lot less hopeless, and a whole lot more hopeful. And while I'm no expert on the many ways in which I'm privileged, and I will never be able to change my privilege single handedly, I know that little by little, my advocacy, my willingness to listen and work toward change, will make a difference.

[Abony Holmes]

Now Affirmative Action is an incredibly thorny subject. I won't even try to get into a discussion about it with you on this blog, because even I have a limit to how shiny, happy, and hopeful I can be. But again, I'd venture to say the topic is a lot more complicated than what you (or I) understand.

Though I can't sum up my thoughts about it right now in this comment, I'd love to discuss it with you over tea sometime:) (I don't drink beer, I think it tastes gross. Unless it's that raspberry flavored beer, that stuff is awesome.)

[Toney]

Hi Abony -

I definitely understand that being white and male privileges me in various ways that someone (for example, you, black and female) might not enjoy. Conversely, you being black and female privileges you in ways that someone like me might not enjoy. Almost everyone you ask will probably tell you that the sum privileges I enjoy outweigh those you enjoy; I understand the dynamic there.

My point with regards to privilege is limited to 2 things: 1. with regards to race, growing up in a homogeneous community, my privilege is measured relative to those around me, which is limited in scope, and 2. I don't believe this affects how advantaged or disadvantaged I am when it comes to access to education. In some ways, I feel less privileged relative to those in the law-school application pool, given I was forced to go to an Idaho-state University because of financial reasons. But I got in to Boalt regardless, and am not complaining.

My point is that disadvantage and S-E disparity, despite the fact that there are patterns with regards to various demographs, is not only tied to race, and the ideal system of admissions and financial aid would take this into account. Doing so would raise all ships, and likely a proportionately larger chunk of those would be minority students, so there wouldn't be any need for race-based AA.

Beer is an acquired, but completely worthwhile, taste. We can start you off slowly!

[Abony Holmes]

My point with regards to privilege is limited to 2 things: 1. with regards to race, growing up in a homogeneous community, my privilege is measured relative to those around me, which is limited in scope, and"

Again I'll encourage you to read more about privilege, but no it is not limited to those growing up around you. The first time I met a person in a wheelchair was when I was in college. This doesn't mean I didn't spend my whole life privileged because I am able bodied. Being an American gives me certain privileges, and although I don't have a passport and have only been to Bermuda in terms of international visiting, this doesn't erase my American privilege.

Privilege, like Daniel said, is not something that is affirmatively given to you always. Sometimes you enjoy the privilege of walking around your homogeneous community and feeling safe and at ease, and no one has provided you with anything. If one of the 1% of "others" you mentioned did the same, they may not have the same feelings, and that is because they don't have the privilege that you have.

When you have discussion about affirmative action, you can feel safe in knowing that few people will question your right to be a student at Boalt or any school, or your qualifications for being where you are. Danielle and I don't have that privilege, in fact I have personally been questioned, and accused of not deserving or not being qualified enough to have gone to the colleges I went to.

I know it is difficult to accept privilege, but keep in mind that privilege is not about you as an individual. It's about our society as a whole. You aren't responsible for white privilege anymore than I am for heterosexual privilege.

But just because we are not responsible, this does not mean we don't benefit. That goes for me, a black female who hardly ever encounters disabled people, and you a white male who grew up mostly around white people. When we both come to recognize our involvement in oppressive systems, we can start to make changes in how those systems work.

2. I don't believe this affects how advantaged or disadvantaged I am when it comes to access to education. In some ways, I feel less privileged relative to those in the law-school application pool, given I was forced to go to an Idaho-state University because of financial reasons. But I got in to Boalt regardless, and am not complaining."

Just because I think I've been super nice so far, I'm going to bring a little of the snark here just because. Forced to go to college? Seriously? This is supposed to be an example of financial struggle? But seriously, no one forced you to go to an Idaho state university. And many people would feel privileged to have been able to go to an Idaho State University. In fact, most people don't have the chance to go to any university. This is why most people don't get to go to law schools like Boalt. And if you look around a little bit, you'll get some idea of the demographics of those "most people." They aren't white males.

[Abony Holmes]

Oh and I forgot to comment on the privilege thing, it's not a contest. It's never a good idea to go into who has it worst battles, no body wins.

Also, I think socio-economic privilege is important, and I think there should be (and there are) government programs to level the playing field in that arena. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be programs to level the playing field in the race arena. The two are not mutually exclusive. Minorities face distinct challenges outside of their socio-economic status, and Affirmative Action is one of the ways our government has endeavored balance things. As an analogy, if you have a really bad headache, and a really bad toothache, you might take an aspirin to make them both feel better. But if it turns out the toothache is because of a cavity, it would be silly of you to continue taking aspirin, hoping that will fix the problem. Different problems call for different solutions.

[Toney]

Firstly, when I said "I was forced to go to UofI", I meant only relative to other admits at Boalt. You say that few people will question me being a student at Boalt; that seems a really arrogant and misguided thing to assume. I am from Idaho - how many Idahoans go to Boalt? I can name 2, including myself, and people always marvel at this. I went to a tier-3 or tier-4 University for undergrad... do you not think that educationally, relative to me, going to Georgetown, you have an advantage? I just do not think that white privilege played a part in my getting into Boalt, especially relative to the other people that were accepted.

As far white privilege playing a part in me getting into Boalt relative to those that didnt even have the opportunity to attain the qualifications to apply... there are two distinct categories here which I mentioned previously. One category is S-E, which we have talked about. The other is concerns leveling the playing field in the race arena, as you mentioned. Suppose that minorities were even on a S-E field: financially and socially they are the same as whites. Do you think that admissions and financial aid should still be based at all on race? Financial and social restrictions are lifted, and a cross-section of class admissions would be equal to a cross-section of society, race-wise.

I just don't think the challenges minorities face outside of S-E disparity should be taken into account admissions-wise. I agree white privilege exists, but like Obama said recently, many whites don't feel such a privilege. I know privilege (especially racial privilege) is not always evident, but to say "well, you just aren't looking for it", and then to base some admissions and financial aid on race is hypocritical and assuming.

I think Prop 209 nails it. I know its easy for me to say "African American graduation rates have increased across the board since the passage of 209", and for you to say "but African American enrollment rates have dropped!". I just think that the key to solving the decreased enrollment rates while maintaining the increased graduation rates is to level the S-E field, and has nothing to do with compensation for name-calling, people assuming you only were accepted bc of race, and the bevy of other crap that our oppressive system tosses at minorities.

I would never play a "who has got it worse game", and I don't think that race-based AA blames me as a white male (as opposed to the system) for white privilege. It may not make me popular, but I feel racial equality through race-based criteria is an oxymoron. I agree there is a problem... I just think the correct solution lies through leveling the S-E field. Its easy to label me as racially insensitive for having this view, but I would hope that you consider how much thought and reflection Ive put into this, and that my only and most sincere intention is to bridge the disparity gap. In the meantime, we will just have to agree to disagree :)

[Abony Holmes]

"Firstly, when I said "I was forced to go to UofI", I meant only relative to other admits at Boalt."

And I'm saying it's silly to say you were forced to go to a college. Not only because going to college is optional, but also because it is a great privilege that many people don't have.

"You say that few people will question me being a student at Boalt; that seems a really arrogant and misguided thing to assume. I am from Idaho - how many Idahoans go to Boalt?"

Yes, and I bet that when people see you they think, "there goes that guy from Idaho, he doesn't deserve to be here." All because you have "I'm from Idaho" tattooed on your forehead, like I have "I'm a black female" tattooed on mine. Except not.

"I went to a tier-3 or tier-4 University for undergrad... do you not think that educationally, relative to me, going to Georgetown, you have an advantage?"

Yes, I went to a great undergraduate school, and I did really well there. That gives me an advantage, and that advantage has to do with the illusive thing called merit that everyone wants to base college admissions on. What's your point?

"I just do not think that white privilege played a part in my getting into Boalt, especially relative to the other people that were accepted."

I never said white privilege was a reason you got into Boalt, but I do think that you should consider the ways in which white privilege does effect you and what you can do to put an end to white privilege.

"Suppose that minorities were even on a S-E field: financially and socially they are the same as whites. Do you think that admissions and financial aid should still be based at all on race?"

Race is far more complicated than money. Wealthy black Americans face some of the same challenges that poor black Americans face, because of their race. This is what Danielle was trying to get across in her "trip to Alabama" scenario.

I think that race should play a role in admissions, just as your being from Idaho played a role in admissions. Diversity for diversity's sake, in my opinion, is a good thing. I like that in class I can hear the perspective of a middle class white guy from Idaho, a rich mexican guy from Florida, and a poor black girl from DC (that would be me:). It helps the learning experience to have lots of different types of people around to learn from. One of the ways in which people are different is their race. If a university feels there is value in having rich black people (let's think a Cosby kid) and poor white people (one of Roseanne's kids) in the same classroom, I think they should take every step to ensure that happens.

"I just don't think the challenges minorities face outside of S-E disparity should be taken into account admissions-wise."

We will have to agree to disagree here. I think all challenges say something about a person, about their contribution to a school, and how they can help improve the learning environment.

"I agree white privilege exists, but like Obama said recently, many whites don't feel such a privilege."

Not feeling a privilege doesn't mean it's not their. I don't know how many times or how many ways I can explain this, other than to say that I think you should do more research on the subject, and if you still disagree with me, we will have to agree to disagree.

"I know privilege (especially racial privilege) is not always evident, but to say "well, you just aren't looking for it", and then to base some admissions and financial aid on race is hypocritical and assuming."

I don't understand what you are getting at here. I think that admissions decisions should be based on multiple factors, from race, to merits, to gender, to socio-economic status, to national origin, to whatever thing you can think of.

"I think Prop 209 nails it. I know its easy for me to say "African American graduation rates have increased across the board since the passage of 209", and for you to say "but African American enrollment rates have dropped!". I just think that the key to solving the decreased enrollment rates while maintaining the increased graduation rates is to level the S-E field, and has nothing to do with compensation for name-calling, people assuming you only were accepted bc of race, and the bevy of other crap that our oppressive system tosses at minorities."

I don't really understand this here either. I don't know much about the effects of Prop 209 on African Americans or other minorities, I'm new to CA and really busy with law school :). But I will have to reiterate my point that being poor is not the only challenge African Americans face. Furthermore, being poor is not all we have to offer by way of adding to the diversity of a school. Take for example historically black colleges and universities. They give special scholarships and have different standard for white students who apply because they value the diversity that a white student adds to their classroom.

"It may not make me popular, but I feel racial equality through race-based criteria is an oxymoron."

I understand that a lot of people feel this way. They hope for a colorblind society. I won't get into that, because its a whole other can of worms, but we don't live in a colorblind society. Hoping for it won't make it come. And getting rid of programs aimed at leveling the playing field for non-white minorities will not bring us toward a colorblind society, because it does nothing to do away with all of the privileges for white people that make the society not colorblind.

"I agree there is a problem... I just think the correct solution lies through leveling the S-E field. Its easy to label me as racially insensitive for having this view, but I would hope that you consider how much thought and reflection Ive put into this, and that my only and most sincere intention is to bridge the disparity gap. In the meantime, we will just have to agree to disagree :)"

I want to level the S-E playing field as much as you do. I happened to have grown up poor as well as black, so I have a personal stake in the matter. I can see how you think that leveling the S-E field is the best and should be the only way to help level the playing field for African Americans, but I hope you can see that I've put a lot of thought into this topic, and I respectfully disagree with you:)

[Toney]

Phew! At first I was under the impression that you felt I was being personal, when I wasn't. I'm glad we are close to a conclusion here.

Just to clarify a couple things. Me being from Idaho didn't help me get into Boalt. Note that I laid out 2 different comparisons, between me and other Boalt admits, and between me and the rest of society. It isn't silly to say "forced to go to UI" when held relative to the first group. Also, my discussions of the white privilege only extend to admissions and financial aid, which are the only things I have discussed here.

Diversity is important, but when it comes to admissions and scholarship, I think merit is only important factor. This doesn't preclude diversity - equaling S-E factors will raise the ability of minorities to achieve equivalent merit, which will increase diversity at universities.

Merit doesn't just mean academic achievement, but overcoming challenges in general. These may include challenges you face because of your race\gender\sexuality, but the mere fact that someone is a member of an under-represented demograph shouldn't be criteria you base admissions on, in my opinion.

But again, agree to disagree. I look forward to carrying on in person, over our respective beer\tea (though I feel you will appreciate acquiring the taste of beer).

[Abony Holmes]

I think we should definitely take this conversation to Zeb. But I do have to say that I know the difference between their and there, despite all evidence to the contrary: "Not feeling a privilege doesn't mean it's not their."

[Toney]

:)